Love the emphasis here! But, so long as we imagine that our faith or obedience “switches on” God’s forgiveness, we have to remain legalistic—refining and defining “the laws” of pardon. This compels us to focus on “our part” in our salvation narrative. It tends to make us anxious or arrogant as you pointed out. It tears us up and tears us apart.
Fortunately, more of us are beginning to realize that grace always comes before faith or obedience, as certainly as Calvary came before Pentecost and Exodus came before Sinai.
Baptism and the Lord’s Supper communicate God’s unconditionally forgiving love; they do not cause God to love or forgive us. They cause us to know we’re already lovingly forgiven and to experience God’s grace. On Pentecost (Ac 2), afflicted hearts were told how to penitently experience God’s grace—remission of sins—not how to achieve it. To be a movement of grace, we may have to humbly correct some misunderstanding of what happened in Ac 2. Until then Christian unity or even recognizing “the body of Christ at large” (B.W. Stone) will be out of our reach.
I respectfully disagree. Baptism is the point at which God's grace is imparted to a repentant, believing, and confessing sinner. Of course, God's love is directed at all mankind before a few choose the narrow way. Baptism does not cause us to know we are already forgiven. Many denominations falsely teach that error. They teach what you seem to be teaching that immersion has nothing to do with salvation. Can you further explain what "we must humbly correct to be a movement of grace?"
Thank you for your respectful and thoughtful reply. At one time I would have said the same thing. Please consider that if grace (or pardon) is imparted—not merely communicated, cleansing the conscience (1 Pet 3:21)—when we respond to the gospel, then God withholds pardon until we respond correctly to the gospel. That means that God forgives sinners on a contractual basis. A contractual relationship with God sets us up for the anxiety or arrogance, that compulsive self-regard which the article wants to address. And, yes many denominations erroneously teach that very thing, only they say that faith (or the sinners prayer) is “the point at which God's grace is imparted.” But, no sinner can carry around the sins that our “scapegoat” carried away once for all time (Heb 9:26, 1 Jn 2:1,2, 4:9,10), except in our own minds. “In other words, God was reconciling the world to himself through Christ, by not counting people’s sins against them. [That’s really good news! DWP] And, God has trusted us with this message of reconciliation.” (2 Corinthians 5:19 CEB) This is consistent with God’s love that cannot keep a record of wrongs (1 Cor 13:5). Alienation can only happen on the human side of anyone’s relationship with God (Col 1:19-21). Of course, we can walk away from our Father and be lost (Lk 15), but no one is lost because they are unclean in God’s eyes (Ac 10:15,28). I would only add that “redemption” is the remission of sins at Calvary (Mt 26:28, Eph 1:7), and “salvation” is the experience of remission of sins at baptism (Mk 16:16, Ac 22:16). And that’s what immersion has to do with salvation.
I don't think you are representing the view of Wes McAdams in this article. God's grace does not rule out humble obedience to His will. God forgives sinners as part of a covenant relationship that involves faith, a confession that Christ is the Son of God, repentance, and immersion for the removal of sin. If people reject these truths and actions, they will not be saved. To teach otherwise is to teach a false gospel. Galatians 1:8
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
1 Corinthians 15
15 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast [a]the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you [b]as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to [c]James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as [d]to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.
Romans 6
Believers Are Dead to Sin, Alive to God
6 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become [a]united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be [b]in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old [c]self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be [d]done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is [e]freed from sin.
8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, [f]is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
You can call that a contract if you wish. I call it the gospel of Christ which is the power to save. One is not saved until one does what Christ has demanded.
Good luck with sorting out and doing everything Christ has commanded in order to achieve a “grace” that isn’t really grace. You may have misunderstood what I was saying. Atonement is forgiveness given; salvation is forgiveness received. I never said that everyone is already saved. Justification by grace is an objective reality for all people = unlimited atonement. Justification by faith is the subjective experience of obedient believers.
I don't believe I have to live perfectly to have grace. I have to be in the Kingdom, the body of Christ, the Church to be saved. Once in the Church, I do not walk in and out of salvation every time I fall short or rebel. Just like the Ark which had a narrow way to enter, and few were willing to listen and obey God and enter it, there is a narrow way into the Church, a spiritual Ark. Once on the ark Noah's family was saved even though they still fell short of doing God's will. As long as Noah's family stayed on the Ark, they were saved from the judgment that came upon the world. Once one has entered the Kingdom and remains in it they are saved. If I misunderstood you, I am sorry. It appeared to me that you were saying one is saved before obeying the gospel.
I have not experienced the error that you seem to be addressing. God acted first and He gives us as individuals the opportunity and responsibility to respond in faith and obedience. Where do you encounter a non-theocratic view of salvation? I am not saying you have not encountered it, but I am curious as to where you encounter it.
I’m glad you’ve not experienced that. I’ve experienced it in myself first and foremost, but also in most people with whom I’ve interacted. I have found it is very rare to encounter someone with a theocentric view of Scripture or salvation.
That indicates some spiritual immaturity in those you encounter, and I am happy you are addressing it with them. Look forward to seeing and hearing you at the Red River encampment.
Some deep thoughts here for sure. I believe C.S. Lewis sayings that spiritual growth is like learning Greek. At first you struggle to conjugate, pronounce, and know all the vocabulary. As you grow, you become to appreciate the Iliad and the Odyssey in ways not previously possible.
Spirituality immaturity might be akin to stumbling through early parts of Greek. Staying in that state is not the goal. The greatest goal is appreciate the beauty of the literary works. Therefore, in my humble opinion, being Theocentric in my view of the Lord allows moved me closer to being like my older brother and King Jesus who was constantly thinking about the Father and not himself.
As often happens, we become like the world around us. Thinking only of ourselves.
I wrote a note a couple of weeks back saying We all think we're the main characters in our own movies, but in reality we're all supporting characters. I try to remember that whenever my ego feels like everything should be all about me!
What was a great help to me was when I finally understood that the Bible was not written to me or about me, but rather for me and all mankind.
The Bible is God’s written communication to us about who He is and his plan of salvation for all. But His promise of salvation is conditional and has written the only condition, but this condition also contains a promise John 3:16
Jesus is the center of it all.
Born once, die twice
Born twice, die once
But if He believes that I was worth dying for, then I must believe He’s worth living for.
He offers the true exchange …His sacrifice in exchange for our sin. We cannot earn salvation, but we will earn crowns, rewards and prizes. Although we are sealed with a guarantee by the Holy Spirit, we can still enter heaven with a life that has nothing to show for it.
Love the emphasis here! But, so long as we imagine that our faith or obedience “switches on” God’s forgiveness, we have to remain legalistic—refining and defining “the laws” of pardon. This compels us to focus on “our part” in our salvation narrative. It tends to make us anxious or arrogant as you pointed out. It tears us up and tears us apart.
Fortunately, more of us are beginning to realize that grace always comes before faith or obedience, as certainly as Calvary came before Pentecost and Exodus came before Sinai.
Baptism and the Lord’s Supper communicate God’s unconditionally forgiving love; they do not cause God to love or forgive us. They cause us to know we’re already lovingly forgiven and to experience God’s grace. On Pentecost (Ac 2), afflicted hearts were told how to penitently experience God’s grace—remission of sins—not how to achieve it. To be a movement of grace, we may have to humbly correct some misunderstanding of what happened in Ac 2. Until then Christian unity or even recognizing “the body of Christ at large” (B.W. Stone) will be out of our reach.
Insightful article. Thank you!
I respectfully disagree. Baptism is the point at which God's grace is imparted to a repentant, believing, and confessing sinner. Of course, God's love is directed at all mankind before a few choose the narrow way. Baptism does not cause us to know we are already forgiven. Many denominations falsely teach that error. They teach what you seem to be teaching that immersion has nothing to do with salvation. Can you further explain what "we must humbly correct to be a movement of grace?"
Thank you for your respectful and thoughtful reply. At one time I would have said the same thing. Please consider that if grace (or pardon) is imparted—not merely communicated, cleansing the conscience (1 Pet 3:21)—when we respond to the gospel, then God withholds pardon until we respond correctly to the gospel. That means that God forgives sinners on a contractual basis. A contractual relationship with God sets us up for the anxiety or arrogance, that compulsive self-regard which the article wants to address. And, yes many denominations erroneously teach that very thing, only they say that faith (or the sinners prayer) is “the point at which God's grace is imparted.” But, no sinner can carry around the sins that our “scapegoat” carried away once for all time (Heb 9:26, 1 Jn 2:1,2, 4:9,10), except in our own minds. “In other words, God was reconciling the world to himself through Christ, by not counting people’s sins against them. [That’s really good news! DWP] And, God has trusted us with this message of reconciliation.” (2 Corinthians 5:19 CEB) This is consistent with God’s love that cannot keep a record of wrongs (1 Cor 13:5). Alienation can only happen on the human side of anyone’s relationship with God (Col 1:19-21). Of course, we can walk away from our Father and be lost (Lk 15), but no one is lost because they are unclean in God’s eyes (Ac 10:15,28). I would only add that “redemption” is the remission of sins at Calvary (Mt 26:28, Eph 1:7), and “salvation” is the experience of remission of sins at baptism (Mk 16:16, Ac 22:16). And that’s what immersion has to do with salvation.
I don't think you are representing the view of Wes McAdams in this article. God's grace does not rule out humble obedience to His will. God forgives sinners as part of a covenant relationship that involves faith, a confession that Christ is the Son of God, repentance, and immersion for the removal of sin. If people reject these truths and actions, they will not be saved. To teach otherwise is to teach a false gospel. Galatians 1:8
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
1 Corinthians 15
15 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast [a]the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you [b]as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to [c]James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as [d]to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.
Romans 6
Believers Are Dead to Sin, Alive to God
6 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become [a]united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be [b]in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old [c]self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be [d]done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is [e]freed from sin.
8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, [f]is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
You can call that a contract if you wish. I call it the gospel of Christ which is the power to save. One is not saved until one does what Christ has demanded.
Good luck with sorting out and doing everything Christ has commanded in order to achieve a “grace” that isn’t really grace. You may have misunderstood what I was saying. Atonement is forgiveness given; salvation is forgiveness received. I never said that everyone is already saved. Justification by grace is an objective reality for all people = unlimited atonement. Justification by faith is the subjective experience of obedient believers.
I don't believe I have to live perfectly to have grace. I have to be in the Kingdom, the body of Christ, the Church to be saved. Once in the Church, I do not walk in and out of salvation every time I fall short or rebel. Just like the Ark which had a narrow way to enter, and few were willing to listen and obey God and enter it, there is a narrow way into the Church, a spiritual Ark. Once on the ark Noah's family was saved even though they still fell short of doing God's will. As long as Noah's family stayed on the Ark, they were saved from the judgment that came upon the world. Once one has entered the Kingdom and remains in it they are saved. If I misunderstood you, I am sorry. It appeared to me that you were saying one is saved before obeying the gospel.
I have not experienced the error that you seem to be addressing. God acted first and He gives us as individuals the opportunity and responsibility to respond in faith and obedience. Where do you encounter a non-theocratic view of salvation? I am not saying you have not encountered it, but I am curious as to where you encounter it.
I’m glad you’ve not experienced that. I’ve experienced it in myself first and foremost, but also in most people with whom I’ve interacted. I have found it is very rare to encounter someone with a theocentric view of Scripture or salvation.
That indicates some spiritual immaturity in those you encounter, and I am happy you are addressing it with them. Look forward to seeing and hearing you at the Red River encampment.
Some deep thoughts here for sure. I believe C.S. Lewis sayings that spiritual growth is like learning Greek. At first you struggle to conjugate, pronounce, and know all the vocabulary. As you grow, you become to appreciate the Iliad and the Odyssey in ways not previously possible.
Spirituality immaturity might be akin to stumbling through early parts of Greek. Staying in that state is not the goal. The greatest goal is appreciate the beauty of the literary works. Therefore, in my humble opinion, being Theocentric in my view of the Lord allows moved me closer to being like my older brother and King Jesus who was constantly thinking about the Father and not himself.
As often happens, we become like the world around us. Thinking only of ourselves.
This is very thought provoking. Thanks
Interesting and very good thoughts
I wrote a note a couple of weeks back saying We all think we're the main characters in our own movies, but in reality we're all supporting characters. I try to remember that whenever my ego feels like everything should be all about me!
What was a great help to me was when I finally understood that the Bible was not written to me or about me, but rather for me and all mankind.
The Bible is God’s written communication to us about who He is and his plan of salvation for all. But His promise of salvation is conditional and has written the only condition, but this condition also contains a promise John 3:16
Jesus is the center of it all.
Born once, die twice
Born twice, die once
But if He believes that I was worth dying for, then I must believe He’s worth living for.
He offers the true exchange …His sacrifice in exchange for our sin. We cannot earn salvation, but we will earn crowns, rewards and prizes. Although we are sealed with a guarantee by the Holy Spirit, we can still enter heaven with a life that has nothing to show for it.